Evolution of Food Science and Nutrition

Speaker 1 0:00

Welcome Dr Annalene Pagliacci to Head Shepherd.

Speaker 2 0:03

Thanks so much for having me, Mark.

Speaker 1 0:05

Excellent. This conversation has been one I've been looking forward to for a while. After I saw you speak in Queenstown at the Xander McDonald Summit, I from that moment thought we'd try and get you on Head Shepherd, and I'm thrilled that we managed to steal a bit of your time to have a chat today. So, yeah, appreciate you all got plenty on.

Speaker 2 0:25

So, yeah, really, really thrilled to have you along. The questions you sent through last night were absolutely fascinating, so I'm really excited to have a chat.

Speaker 1 0:32

Excellent, very good. All right, we'll go with an easy question to start with. What is for those of us out there, what does a food and nutrition scientist? What does that mean? What do you do?

Speaker 2 0:41

Okay, so nutrition science is a little bit different. You've got to realize nutrition as a science and it is a science only started in the late 1800s after the discovery of elements of the periodic table, and so scientists back then and including medical doctors they were so excited about these elements that they started looking for it in everything like tree bark and tea and milk, and then also in organs of people who had died, and so that was kind of how nutrition as a science kind of yeah, kind of was discovered or evolved Finding these amino acids which gave rise to, discovering proteins which gave rise to vitamins and minerals, and then discovering the deficiency orders or symptoms or diseases if you didn't have enough in your body, versus, and then working out what foods have it. And not having enough of it in the diet would lead to scurvy for vitamin C, protein, energynutrition if you don't have enough protein, iron, leading to iron deficiency anemia. So that was kind of like the birth of nutrition and it really did peak in that early 1920s, 1930s, 1940s, and then after that we had the same time, world War I, world War II, all of that sort of stuff happening, the Great Depression happening. We've come through all of that and we hit the 1950s onwards and it's like this time of peace and prosperity. Women can enter the workforce, and so if Colonel Sanders tried to make KFC at any other time in history, he probably would not have succeeded, but he created it in the 1950s as a way to help women who were entering the workforce.

Speaker 2 2:29

And so we start seeing the changes in human health and changes in the food supply, and you got to realize nutrition is sitting in this little pocket on its own, reacting to what is these changes discovering? Oh, wow, okay, okay, now we're starting to see a rise in chronic health conditions and a rise in diabetes and a rise in blood pressure and a rise in people dying from heart attacks. What is the cause of that? We've never seen that before. Um, yes, we don't have malnutrition, but now we've got this other problem going on. So it's it's it's always a little bit behind, or it has traditionally been a little bit behind, because it became very so fixated on disease outcomes and the role of food. And you know that is what nutrition does, but it is so much more than just disease outcomes, outcomes. So as a nutrition scientist, I've kind of evolved, and where I come into the whole thing, you still have people in nutrition who are very, very, very much so dietetic, focused, clinical nutrition, working in hospitals, working with athletes.

Speaker 2 3:38

But as a nutrition scientist I and a food scientist I understand the components in food, whether that be fats, carbohydrates, dietary fiber, proteins, whatever it is. And I look at it and how does it interact with each other? How does the structures interact, how does the architecture interact with each other to make new food products? But also in our digestive tract, how do those different components interact to either enhance absorption or decrease absorption? So an example is no one sits down and eats just one food product. We don't just eat potato, a pile of potato or a pile of rice or one steak. We might have some meat, we might have some steamed vegetables, which could be carrots, broccoli, pumpkin, and some salad and a bread roll. So I'm looking at what are those nutritional components and how do they actually affect digestion in the body. That's kind of what a food and nutrition scientist does. To me it just makes sense.

Speaker 2 4:46

I always, I never wanted to be a dietitian, I just didn't. The idea of working in clinical practice never took to me. I've always been fascinated by the food industry and, and so I was like well, why do I have to pick between the two? Why don't I just work in the middle? Excellent.

Speaker 1 5:02

Excellent. That's why I started my company to do exactly what I wanted. So that sounds fair enough to me. So was it a distinct decision to go into this as your chosen career, or has it sort of evolved over time?

Speaker 2 5:15

It has evolved over time. So I will say, you know, when I finished my undergrad, that was in food science and nutrition, and we either it was a very small cohort food science and nutrition students and the food tech students at the University of Queensland, I think there was like a grand total of like 20 of us, like across two degrees. So we were very small. This is like circa 2003. Both of those degrees are really massive now, but there was no one doing it, um, and so you either went and, you know, did some more food technology, or you went off and did dietetics and I just didn't want to do that. So I did a master's um, my honors sorry, not masters I did my honors in majoring in epidemiology and it was during that project which was looking at the prevalence of overweight and obesity amongst Brisbane school-aged kids. It just became so real to me I had in my head I wanted to be a public health nutritionist or an epidemiologist, but it became so real to me that we come up with public health policy strategies, which is awesome, which is great, and we can try and communicate to the consumer, which is fine. Nothing wrong with that. But the food industry supplies the food supply. So if you're not engaging with the food industry and you're not interacting with them and you're not influencing them, it's not going to change. So, yes, communicating and educating consumers is essential, because the food industry makes what people buy, but also being available to the food industry if they want to do reformulations, if they see the need for it, if you can be involved in that. So when I started working in the food industry this is like 2005,.

Speaker 2 7:08

Way back then, for a nutrition scientist, a nutrition expert, to be working in the processed food industry was almost unheard of. It was like you were selling your soul to the devil. And to me it was like, well, want I really want to understand? Like, yes, I can work in the food industry, but I had not much interest to do that. I just thought if we can improve the food supply, like, say, if I decrease salt in every product in the supermarket by 10 and I decrease the saturated fat and the trans fatty acids or the sugar or whatever it is, just drop it all by 10%, if you just think about that, the impact is massive because everybody has to eat, they may not go see a dietician until it's too late, but if we can just improve the food supply. Now, essentially, that's public health in a massive way. So yeah, I went into the food industry purely to learn to understand the hurdles and the challenges that the food industry have to deal with. My aim was then to get back into public health. I just never left.

Speaker 1 8:22

Excellent, cool. So we'll get into doing some attempt to try and understand what's going on in food these days, or what's going on with nutrition. And we've been through the fat is bad era and that, well, the conspirators say that was all paid for by the sugar industry. I don't know how true that is or not. You might be able to tell me. And now we're sort of safely in. The carbs are bad era and you've got keto diets and stuff where you can eat as much fat as you like, as long as you don't get any carbs. What's the truth about which diet is least likely to kill you?

Speaker 2 8:52

Yeah. So you've got to. Okay, we'll go back to history again. So you've got to realise, like, how did we get here? And so when we look at the history of our food supply coming out from World War I and II, coming into this more processed food industry yes, it was definitely more processed, your TV dinners and things like that were starting to be manufactured. Automation was actually in the automotive world and car manufacturing, and so the food industry took that technology on board because that just allowed them to put more food out, produce, manufacture more food in an efficient way that was more cost efficient.

Speaker 2 9:34

You got to realize we've come from the great depression to world wars, people living on coupons, lining up just to get a loaf of bread. So the mentality and the mindset at that time was all about trying to make food as affordable as possible. The idea that overconsumption could lead to chronic health conditions was not there. No awareness of that. We've just had all of this micronutrient deficiency issues because of not having enough food. So having this sector come into play, starting to make more of these manufactured, processed foods, your TV dinners, the societal change women were entering the workforce so they weren't at home all day to bake bread and make roast chicken and do all of that. So that gave rise to your fast food outlets as well.

Speaker 2 10:30

Plus, people have a bit more money, and we know it historically. You look anywhere in the world, once you have a little bit more cash, you may not go buy the Rolex, you don't send your kids to the private schools, you don't buy that new four-wheel drive. You spend it on food. So it is the first thing that we do. Whether that's because we're hardwired for survival, I'm not entirely sure, but it is our primary driver. So you see that that's what was happening in the 1950s, 1960s. Come the 1970s, it's still happening and we're getting more processed foods. And you got to realize processing is a technology. That technology can be used to create really nutritious, good quality food products or it can be used to create food safe but nutritionally deplete food products. Cheap or not so cheap. Either way, it's the application of the technology. Cheap or not so cheap, either way it's the application of the technology. So, coming to the 1970s, 1980s, we are seeing this huge spike in chronic health conditions, especially cardiovascular disease.

Dietary Misconceptions

Speaker 2 11:34

Now our understanding of fat was not what it is now Like we understand. You've got your saturators, your unsaturates. Within your unsaturators, there are whole ranges of different fatty acids omega-3, dha, omega-6s and they all have a really important role in controlling the production of LDL or HDL cholesterol in the body. See, that was not well understood, if at all, in the 70s and 80s. So what do we do? Simple solution we demonize fat. Stop eating fat. Don't have your butter, don't have oil, don't have eggs.

Speaker 2 12:10

If you look at Time Magazine, every 10 years it is literally the front cover is eat fat, don't eat fat, eat fat, don't eat fat. It is just a cycle. And then you give them about three years and then it becomes sugar's good for you, sugar's not good for you. Eat fruit, don't eat fruit. Like it's this really weird oxymoron, right? So we've demonized fat and we have the low-fat diets of the 1970s and 80s come through, which was like okay, we're very, very, very so fixated on weight loss. Then we hit the late 80s and 90s.

Speaker 2 12:43

We haven't really done much to change the weight loss issue, but now we're seeing the rise in diabetes and so, with the rise in diabetes, at the same time, type 2 diabetes in particular what is the cause of that? Excess glucose in the blood? So we have to demonize sugar. So we have to demonize sugar, and it's kind of really. It's a really simplistic, almost purest way of thinking, a really, really, really simplistic way of thinking. As we know more. We have the evidence to back ourselves up Like yes, excess saturated fat does increase your body's production of LDL cholesterol, which causes the atherosclerotic plaques inside your arteries, which narrows it and leads to all of those sort of health-related issues.

Speaker 2 13:35

Yes, excess consumption of refined sucrose does increase. If you're not producing enough insulin, can lead to the sugar spike or glucose spikes in your bloodstream, making your body less aware of insulin, and so over time that can lead to prediabetes and lead to diabetes, type 2 diabetes. But it's not just one factor. You've also got genetics, which is a factor that needs to be aware and as much as you can try and control for that. Physical activity, stress levels, sleep are all really important parts of the jigsaw puzzle. So it is very simplistic to demonize one component.

Speaker 2 14:22

I could be on a low-fat diet, a low sugar diet, and I could literally do 10 steps a day. That is not going to be good for me at all. I'm still going to end up with some sort of chronic health condition at the end of it and who do we demonize? The easiest thing to demonize is some food component. So currently, unfortunately, fat can still be very confusing for a lot of people.

Speaker 2 14:48

Getting their head around the amounts of fat, the amounts of carbohydrates and the amounts of proteins can actually still be confusing. Because you have to realize our carbs, our fats and our proteins are our macronutrients. They provide our body with energy. Our micronutrients, like our vitamins, minerals, antioxidants we don't need that in amounts more than one gram because it doesn't really contribute to energy, but it contributes to how everything in our body functions. So it's those macronutrients, your carbohydrates, your fats, your proteins. They all have different amounts of energy concentrations per gram. The energy density, or kilojoules of energy, in one gram of carbohydrates is roughly about 17. In fats it's 37 kilojoules of energy and in protein it's also 17. But you've got to also, you know, within your carbohydrates you've got simple carbs, you've got complex carbohydrates and then you've got dietary fibre, which is like totally different altogether. It does its own thing thing.

Speaker 2 16:01

So nutrition is not as black and white, um, as it's made out to be. You, you can't treat a carbohydrate exactly the same as a protein, exactly the same as a fat, because they all have different roles in the body and they contribute different amounts of energy to the body. So it's very simplistic. That's why seeing a dietitian is actually very good. If a person can see a dietitian, that would help them out a lot. Right now, protein can do no wrong. Well, it appears that protein can do no wrong, but that's not true because it can. Excessive consumption, especially in individuals who've got a family history or an underlying health condition relating to their kidneys. Excessive protein can actually exacerbate that or bring it up to the surface. So you don't want to really cause that sort of problem to happen. So again, it has to be considered and personalised to that individual. But we take blanket concepts about nutrition and apply it to ourselves as if it is personalised and it's not, and that can be very problematic.

Speaker 1 17:21

yeah, yeah, yeah, she's complex, yeah, excellent, I guess we do. We do spend well in the farming world. We spend a lot of time thinking in just percentage or total amount of energy and total amount of protein to feed, to feed livestock, which is not even simple in those animals, but then gets a whole lot more complex when we think about all the micronutrients. But we'll we'll move to the other end of the spectrum, so away from stuff that kills you to stuff that keeps you alive, and and there's the blue zones around the world, which are the homes to the world's oldest living people. I think there's five sort of classified areas where there's sort of lots of centurions and people that live for for a long time. Is in your mind, what? Is there anything that links those areas? I've heard the sort of the more social sort of links between those areas, but nutritionally, is there anything that links those areas? I've heard the sort of the more social sort of links between those areas, but nutritionally, is there anything that links up those different groups of people?

Speaker 2 18:10

Yeah, so blue zones. I think the phraseology blue zones kind of came into vogue in the early 2000s, like around 2003, 2004.

Speaker 2 18:21

I think it was a documentary maker who came up with that phraseology, but studying of centenarians, so people who live to 100 or more has been going on for a very long time in nutrition, looking at what are common traits, and why are there so many centenarians in Okinawa and why are there so many really, really, really, really old people in Sardinia? And so the most common trait that we see is well, there's a few common traits actually. Number one is their active lifestyle. So they're still actively involved in their society, whether that be, you know, wheeling their little tubers through the rice paddy field or going fishing on the trawler or something like that. It is not like our very modern societies that most of us in Australia live like. So they're very much so involved in food production. In their little family plots of farming they make essentially grow their own food, small village type environments. So, if you think about it, clean air, clean environment they're very active or they try and maintain their levels of activity rather than, you know, you hit 65 and you retire. That's not even a concept in those places at all. Old age homes is not a thing. So they you know the elderly people stay with their family and they contribute in whatever way that they can. So that's those two things, the environment, both the living environment and the social environment, and I think you know, you got to realize, when you're actively doing something, your mind is constantly being challenged. It's not being allowed to just sit and vegetate, so that helps a lot.

Speaker 2 20:13

But from a nutritional perspective, they eat local and they eat whatever they've got available. So, if you look at it, yes, their diets are more so plant-based. And when I say plant-based and this is a really important statement plant-based does not mean plant-exclusive. If you look at every dietary guideline in the world that has been going on for decades and decades and decades, the dietary guidelines have always been plant-based. So eat your five serves of veggies, eat your five serves or three serves of whole grains three to five. Eat your two serves of fruit and then your protein is about two to three serves a day. Your dairy is about two to three serves a day. So you look at that, just look at the proportions. It has always been a plant-based diet. It does not mean that it is plant exclusive. There's a reason why we need to eat more plants because they have lots of water and lots of fiber. So we poop and we pee it out and they do bring and, like fiber is really important. It is the food of choice for your gut bacteria. They need it, they love it. It actually is their best food to stimulate their growth and development.

Speaker 2 21:23

Your plants come with your antioxidants and your phytonutrients as well, which we don't have in as much quantities, if at all, in a lot of our animal-based foods and they're really important. Things like your anthocyanins, your phenolic acids that you get in your blueberries through to your artichokes, through to your red wine and stuff like that. That purple color is called anthocyanins and it has a really important role. So we've got heaps of those nutrients that come in very small doses in your veggies and your fruit that we have to actually eat consistently and regularly. So when we look at these blue zones around the world, if you want to call it that, there is this commonality they eat what's local, they eat what's seasonal, they eat a lot of their plant-based foods that is, in their region.

Speaker 2 22:16

So what the Okinawans eat is very different to what the Sardinians eat. The Okinawans don't eat much tomatoes at all, whereas the Sardinians that's like 70% of the diet because they grow a lot of it. They eat heaps and heaps and heaps of fish. They do have red meat, but it is usually like two to three times a week and even then it's in small amounts. So when you're looking at the Okinawans in Japan, it could be anywhere between 50 to 90 grams in a meal, but in that meal, like 50 grams is very small. They've also got a boiled egg. They've also got about 50 to 90 grams of fish. They've also got some miso soup and tofu. Then they've got their veggies and their rice. So it is a very, um a very diverse diet. You would not see them eating one thing. You don't see them eating one or two or three different things at all. They eat a lot of diversity. So, yeah, that's probably the biggest commonalities between them. Excellent.

Speaker 1 23:17

Cool, thank you. We might skip to the obvious next question, which is I know you're not anti-meat, but what is the truth about the role of meat in a healthy diet? We've heard everything from it's toxic through to it's amazing for you, and normally when there's two extremes there's some sensible part in the middle, and I guess that's what you've just said. Really, it's that sort of. We have evolved eating meat, but not solely eating meat.

Speaker 2 23:42

Yeah, yeah. So if you can eat meat, go for it. I don't think anyone should feel guilty with eating meat. If you can eat it and there isn't issues with accessibility or religion or something like that, there is nothing wrong with eating red meat.

Speaker 2 24:03

Red meat is nutritionally dense, and when I say nutritionally dense, think about a concentrated cordial versus a diluted cordial. The flavor is very different. You only need a little bit of that concentrate in there, and that is exactly what red meat is. It is very nutritionally dense in protein. It has the entire amino acid, every amino acid that our body does not produce. It has it in there, in addition to iron, which is absolutely essential. It's a critical nutrient, a critical micronutrient. You've got B12.

Speaker 2 24:40

Now I know people say I need B12, but do you actually know what that does? Without B12, you cannot get the energy out of your carbohydrates. So it is absolutely fundamental, and red meat is our only source of dietary B12. There's no other way we can get it except take a supplement or get a shot from the doctors. There's no way to actually get it in our diet except through red meat, because of how the rumen works, and so the cattle are able to produce it in their gut and that's what ends up in their muscle tissue, which ends up in meat. So if you can eat it, definitely have your red meat, but the thing is we don't need a lot of meat in the diet.

Speaker 2 25:20

Now this is where it gets a bit challenging, because it is true, when you look at epidemiological studies and you compare diets, populations that only eat plants so vegans or vegetarians versus diets who are considered omnivores, so they have animal protein, animal derived foods in their diet, yes, we do see a higher prevalence of certain health conditions, of certain chronic health conditions like cardiovascular disease and certain types of cancers like colon cancer. Now the question is, is it meat's fault or is it the fact that the diet is not necessarily overall healthy? And that is actually a really important differentiation, because there is actually some research which shows no difference between omnivore diets and your vegetarian diet. So your plant-exclusive diets if the omnivore diet is following the dietary guidelines, whereas your omnivore diets that have got a lot of processed foods in it, that have got your meat pies, your pizzas, your hot dogs, your sausage rolls, huge big portions of red meat like three times my next ride trip let me where you know you're, where your.

Speaker 2 26:41

Your content in the diet is a really big proportion of meat and a very, very, very small proportion of fruits and vegetables and whole grains. Yes, you're most definitely going to have issues. You're setting yourself up for big trouble then, because, like I said, dietary fiber is the food of choice for your bacteria. You've got to realize something. We talk about the gut microbiome a lot and it's almost like it's a separate entity, but it is literally like a little family that's living inside of you. It is your bacterial baby. You can't get rid of it. You've got to look after it. Unlike me, who has the luxury of choosing what I put in my mouth and I can pick it based on flavor and nutrition. It's usually I pick it on nutrition and then flavor, but my bacteria don't get that choice. Whatever is not absorbed in my small intestine by default, they will eat it. So dietary fiber and the antioxidants that it is able to traffic to the colon is absolutely essential.

Speaker 2 27:49

Now we know, like new research is showing, we used to think previously that too much protein in the colon is not great, because the bacteria fermented produce lots of nitrogen and that leads to carcinogens. True, that's a hundred percent. True, but what we are also now finding is that dietary fiber, carbohydrates and protein in the colon actually seems to be having a much higher beneficial effect. So the bacteria ferment the carbs, the resistant starch and the dietary fiber. That allows them to grow in numbers. But in order to grow in numbers they've got to split and replicate, and that's where the protein comes in, because it helps them to replicate and grow in numbers.

Speaker 2 28:35

So again, it adds to our I guess our understanding. It's really strengthening our understanding that the diet needs diversity. There is an important role. Red meat chicken diversity there is an important role. Red meat chicken, fish, dairy they have a role to play. Red meat fish, dairy poultry yes, they're all animal derived, but they've actually got very different nutritional compositions. It's not entirely just about protein. When you're eating these foods, it's important to have a diversity of them in the diet.

Speaker 1 29:12

Cool, thank you. There's a couple of things which scare me to my core, being a scientist. One is when you hear the quote science is just another opinion, which does scare me a lot. And then the concept, I guess, of multiple truths, that what I believe is true is different to what you believe is true, and on we go. I guess where I'm coming from with that question is we, as like the average consumer, every day we're just offering between a good marketing strategy and knowing what's actually good for us. Is there any? I mean, you've gone through some great principles now, but is there any core things that help us work through that other than going and seeing a dietitian?

Speaker 2 29:42

All right. First point I will say is nobody questions what an astronaut or rocket scientist says, because none of us are building rockets and spaceships in our backyard, all right, we're not doing that.

Speaker 2 30:01

So because we don't do it, we trust them. Most of us are not mechanics, so we trust what the mechanic says. We don't build our own houses. We get an expert in to build that house and we believe what they say because they've got the skill set in it. Now the issue with food is that everybody can eat it. You can literally go into any shopping center. To me, that is my lab. I go there and I buy all sorts of different experimental products to play with, but literally you walk in there and anybody can buy whatever. And it almost seems. In today's day and age, social media is great. It can be used for good. It can also be used to spread misnomers like wildfire, and because everybody can eat and everybody can cook and anybody can lose weight, it almost makes it seem that they have credibility to comment on food and nutrition related concepts, and that's actually not true. Would you listen to me if I was telling you how to build a house? No, because I've got no clue how to do that.

Speaker 1 31:16

You've got a pretty convincing style, so you might be able to put it off.

Speaker 2 31:20

So I think that that was probably my first point. Okay, yeah, maybe you don't have to go see a dietitian, but be aware where you're getting your information from, what is the credibility of that source, and have a look for what is. Is there any bias? Like, go for it, check me out. I don't have a problem with that, pull me apart as much as you can, but it's really important to actually start thinking that way instead of just believing information because a person is charismatic, because they've lost weight, because they can plate up a really pretty looking sandwich. That's not good enough when it comes to understanding the human body.

Nutrition and Food Production Complexities

Speaker 2 31:56

The second thing is nutrition, like all sciences, is evolving. Okay, so what we know today is based on everything we've known right up until this point in time, and tomorrow there's probably going to be like at least 10,000 new papers maybe not 10,000, but at least a thousand papers globally published in the world by the end of this week on something relating to nutrition and food science. So our knowledge is constantly improving and getting better and we're having an improvement in clarity, but there are some fundamental concepts that are not going to change, like the law of gravity what goes up must come down. The law of what you eat and the roles of different foods. Like, we know that we need protein to build muscle. We know we need protein to grow tissue. We know that protein is broken down and these amino acids get used in all different sort of funky ways, from building hormones to growing a baby. We know those physiological processes, so that's not going to change. So there are some fundamental truths that just won't change as much as you'd like it to change. Eating 12 bananas a day and nothing else is definitely not a good idea, even though that is apparently that's trending somewhere. Someone's yeah, yes, um, if anyone tells you to eat one particular food and only one particular food, that's just not how we work, that's not how our physiology works.

Speaker 2 33:33

So I think, in a nutshell, if, um, if I had to give your audience just really simple basic nutrition tools that they can take away with them. Number one is eat color. And so when I'm saying eating color, I'm not talking about multicolored jelly babies, but look at your plates and when you, you know whatever you cook, like it could be a roast or a curry or a stir fry or whatever. Just look at the colors on the plate. Do you have some red veggies, orange veggies, green veggies, white Eat your color. You can add yellow in there if you're corn or something like that, but eat your color. You've got all your bases covered. Secondly is, if you have red meat, or you get red meat, if you're having protein, you want it to be the size of your palm. Okay, so palm thickness in here, not my fingers, just my palm. Look into your own hand. You carry that with you. It is a really good gauge on roughly how much you need and then you supplement the rest. You played with your fruit, your fruits, your veggies and your whole grains.

Speaker 1 34:45

Excellent as an industry. We hear pretty regularly, but less so, I think, around the non-animal derived sources of animal products. So your fake or whatever non-animal milks, your non-animal meats, I guess, from a strictly nutritional point of view, do you think it will be possible to replicate nutrition, which I guess? Can we produce animal proteins without the animals, and is that a sensible thing for society to be launching into?

Speaker 2 35:08

Yeah, okay, well, okay, first is we've got to back up a little bit here. Dairy, red meat, chicken, whatever it is, is not just protein, and I think that is unfortunately the undoing for the agriculture sector. It's like we've got tunnel vision and you know beef, lamb, chicken, fish, whatever it is milk protein, protein, protein, protein, protein. And because we have dumbed down and I use that word specifically we have dumbed down foods that are multi-nutritional in its composition to one nutrient.

Speaker 2 35:51

We've literally opened up ourselves to be replicated and that's just not possible. So when you take a step back and we're making the alternative type of food products, okay, firstly, yes, there is a market for it and there is a need for those food products. You've got to realize. People coming into Australia, you know, but migrants of all different types, food allergies is seems to be increasing globally. It is an issue. Food intolerances can be an issue too. So, yeah, there is definitely from a health perspective, there is definitely need for them. But to say that they are 100% an alternative, in my opinion is erroneous, because an alternative is not just about color and it's not just about function. So, say, a nut milk may look creamy white and you can add it to your coffee and have it as a drink, but nutritionally it is not the same as dairy milk. The end it is a non-dairy liquid that can be used for whatever purpose you want, but nutritionally it's not the same. And I think that that part of the sector they really need to improve on their nutritional composition and they will. They definitely will.

Speaker 2 37:16

But simultaneously, what we understand about whole foods, our knowledge is getting deeper and our understanding is getting deeper because what I said earlier about food architecture and how nutrients interact with each other, that's exactly it. So in the case of milk, these nutrients are naturally excreted. It just blows my mind how a dairy cow can eat grass that has got practically nothing in it except for water and it's like 87% fiber. How did they eat it and they're able to break it down and extract very small amounts of micronutrients. They've got to eat huge volumes of it in order to get substantial quantities of these micronutrients and actually naturally express it in milk. That's just how they do it. That is incredible. We know that magnesium and phosphorus that's naturally in dairy milk actually enhances your body's absorption of calcium. So when we say milk is a great source of calcium, well actually we really should be saying it's a great source of calcium, magnesium and phosphorus that work together synergistically to be absorbed in the body.

Speaker 1 38:28

It's a little bit harder to get your mouth around.

Speaker 2 38:31

But it's understanding that food components and nutrients that are naturally present actually enhance absorption, whereas when we're making a food product we are literally putting ingredients in, and how they interact with each other is yet to be determined. We're hoping the behavior will be similar to what happens in dairy or be similar to what happens in meat, but we still don't know that. You've got to realize we're still working this stuff out with the natural stuff. How on earth are we going to work it out with the non-natural stuff? Right, it's actually not as simple as when you think about it.

Speaker 2 39:12

Nutrition is both really amazing, but there's still a lot of unknowns, especially in our understanding. Like, we understand physiology. We know how the stomach works, how the intestines work, how the colon works, but what is going on there with these food components in their different architectural structures? So when I'm saying architectural structure, think, say, a glass of milk is a liquid. Think a yogurt is pretty much the same chemistry, but it is a very different structure. And then think cheese. It's all started off with the same product and it's, you know, gone through a different type of processing and it's landed up in a different format, but the calcium and the magnesium and phosphorus is still there. How does it interact in that structure to be absorbed? That's kind of what we're trying to understand. So this is called mechanisms of action and this is what nutrition is going to as a science will be looking at in a deeper way. How do foods do what they do?

Speaker 1 40:17

Excellent. So if we stick on the complex which, well, it's complex to me anyway nutrient density and we hear lots of stories about nutrient density of food and how it at least may be impacted by how it's produced, which makes sense to me that if you, I think I guess things like I know that if an animal's 18 months of age, it's going to have a higher zinc, it's going to have a higher iron or whatever than something that's younger, and so you can see how different production systems produce different nutrient density and all sorts of things. I guess, on the other side of that coin, growing things fast and be efficient on farm means that, by definition, animals or I guess I'm just thinking animal products at the moment, but I'm wondering if it's the same for fruit and veggies if they're faster you grow, the less less nutrients it actually ends up containing. How do you?

Speaker 1 41:02

see that complexity playing out longer term, if I've even gone close to explaining my question, yeah, so it is.

Speaker 2 41:11

There is that challenge with the environment, the environmental side of things. So you know, leaching nutrients out of the soil and the ground over time, being able to give those farms a rest and things like that is super important. But simultaneously you can have, you know, more intense types of farmings, like vertical farmings, which is actually not that uncommon in Europe and Asia. Vertical farming is becoming more on trend. It's happening in a lot of different countries where you've got like five, six, seven, ten storeys high cucumber farms and tomato farms or whatever it is, and because they're grown in a nutrient-rich liquid base, that actually enhances the growth of these different types of plant foods, which is not actually a bad thing If it is able to get food at a efficient rate that still has got good nutrition in it but is also cost efficient into the mouths of the masses. That's not a bad thing. If anything, that should be supported.

Speaker 2 42:27

Nutrition is often quite a polarizing science and I don't know why it should never be that, because nutrition should be for everyone. Whether you are in a refugee camp in a third world country or living in Bondi in Sydney, it's for everybody. The principles of nutrition should never change, but obviously access to a food supply plays a big role in that. So this is where those types of technologies can actually enhance that. A couple of weeks ago I was in Singapore and I learned about this absolutely phenomenal liquid-based stimulant, I guess you could call it. It enhances the behavior of chlorophyll in plants, so you just literally got to spray it onto your plants, onto the leaves, and it attracts more sunlight, so it speeds up chlorophyll activity, so you get more energy transformation in the leaf to actually support faster growth rate in that tomato, that carrot, that strawberry, that lettuce.

Nutrition, Agriculture, and Consumer Understanding

Speaker 2 43:36

So basically you can actually get more, either A more product or B. So basically you can actually get either A more product or B harvest it at a shorter period of time. And when you look at technologies like that, like that is epic, that's like next level intelligence, it's biotechnology, literally just using the sun. We've never been able to speed up the ability to use the sun and these guys are creating a liquid stimulant that can actually help plants do that. So from that angle, if it improves efficiency and cost effectiveness, we've got a cost of living issue going on here in Australia and it's kind of the same issue all around the world. So if that allows us to put fruits and vegetables in the hands and the mouths of families, that's not a bad thing.

Speaker 2 44:25

Before I did my PhD I was very much so on a personal level an organic consumer, and I didn't think there was anything wrong with my thinking. In hindsight now it was from a very strict place of privilege because I literally could afford it. But then I also measure the antioxidant composition in my organic fruits and vegetables from my little farmer's markets versus what I was getting from Woolies and Coles and your big supermarkets, and on an antioxidant level, it wasn't very dissimilar, to be honest, which really shocks me. I could not believe that. I expected it to be completely different and it wasn't. It wasn't hugely significantly different at all. So, um, you know, in terms of your volatiles that give flavor, yeah, that was different, but if we're just talking about nutrition, I didn't find anything different between them which made me stop and think well, wow, I'm a proponent of something and I'm trying to discourage everybody, but maybe what I'm saying is not actually helping a lot of people, because they can't actually afford to buy. A lot of people, because they can't actually afford to buy a trolley load of fresh produce from an organic farmer's market, but they might buy one or two items and then the rest of their trolley is filled with processed foods.

Speaker 2 45:53

Whereas if I focus on eating nutritious foods in a diversity of colors, having more of your veggies and your fruits for sure, supplementing your diet with protein rich foods whether that be your tofu, your red meat, your fish, your chicken, whatever it is, in the appropriate amount within your budget, I think that was actually. That is actually a much better strategy that people can get nutrition in. Conversely, you've got your cell culture technology that is excruciatingly expensive. Now I was in Singapore, yeah, and I actually tried some cultured products. I gave it a go. It was a little bit hard to get my head around because I've done cell culture with cancer cancer research so that was a bit challenging for me to like. This is what I do. I grow cancer cells in a lab, like how?

Speaker 1 46:50

am I going to eat?

Speaker 2 46:51

this. Yeah. Yeah, it was a bit of a different way of thinking, but I gave it a shot and it was a very I mean, it was a paste and it's used as an ingredient in a different type of food, so overall the flavor of it was amazing. But again, that was like in this really top tier, high class, finest of dining restaurants. It's not something you would have with like a big meal because it was super expensive. And that just goes back to that point Like, yes, I think eventually we will be doing more cell culture and fermentation and precision fermentation type processing.

Speaker 2 47:32

But to say we're going to make this, these protein products, so we feed the masses I actually don't think so. But I think that they have a very important role in creating ingredients, so bioactive amino acids that can be used in infant formula or fat alternatives that can be used in products for people with dysphagia, so it's easy for them to swallow, but it also delivers the nutrients that they need, so that technology or those types of technologies can be used to produce high quality nutrient type ingredients that can be used in processed foods, medical foods, supplements, so we can actually create higher quality supplement or medical type foods than what we currently have, but in terms of feeding the masses, nothing is more efficient than a cow.

Speaker 1 48:31

Yeah, or a sheep.

Speaker 2 48:33

Yeah, exactly, or a sheep. Nothing is more efficient than that, if you think about it like cultured meat is like at the moment I think it's at its cheapest it's roughly about $150 to $200 a kilo. A kilo, yeah, yeah, and that is with the lab. That's not even retail. How on earth is anyone ever going to afford a kilo of that for their family? Like no, yeah, not possible.

Speaker 1 49:00

And I guess, yeah, I guess things change, but yeah, no, that's definitely I guess the other thing I'm intrigued about is kind of labeling confusion which I think I don't know.

Speaker 1 49:07

I think it might be my perception, but organic, regenerative, free range, welfare friendly, local. I reckon you can put any of them on the outside of a packet and somebody might get confused or start thinking that is it for some reason better for me and I think I don't know, I can put that in the box that someone's cared more than average about producing this product. So therefore I'm going to reward that, as I guess. Is there any difference in and you've already answered this a bit in your antioxidants point around your fruits and veg, around organic like can we sufficiently change the nutrient profile of foods by the way we produce it? Or is it just that bi-local, which is fine? People want to believe or see where their food's coming from. That's awesome and that's an option. But again, that would be an option for us privileged and maybe not for someone who just needs to get nutritious food for their family.

Speaker 2 49:57

Yeah, so there is some new research coming out. This is circa 2020 onwards, um, where meat like beef that is purchased from different localities in spain, um I think there's some studies in canada and places like that as well, where they compare um the fatty acid composition, protein, pretty much it's pretty stable. But the fatty acid composition, cholesterol composition, between spring and winter, between um cattle that has been pasture fed the entire time versus intense grain raised, which we don't really do here in Australia we do pasture raised and then grain finish, but Europe and in North America they often have these intense grain feeding pretty much their entire life. And so, yes, there is actually differences nutritionally between the fatty acid compositions, the cholesterol content. The grass raised organic meats were consistently lower in those parameters across the board. But whilst I can read these papers and explain that, you've got to realise it is situational to that food supply in that region. So it would be really erroneous for someone in Australia to make that claim on their food products, on their lamb or their beef, if it hasn't actually been assessed. And I think that's actually the next step.

Speaker 2 51:41

In agriculture we're starting to see nutrition not just for animal health and animal growth, but nutrition for humans. It does start on farm, and can we manipulate it on farm? I think we can, but we just don't know. We haven't done enough research yet from and it's not something I could definitively say anything Black and white. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. But I will raise a point.

Speaker 2 52:12

In Canada, this study was done by the Canadian government and they surveyed the Canadian population of people who had become plant exclusive and what they found is, out of the individuals that had become plant exclusives really large cohort across the nation 70% of them I think it's 70, 60 to 70% of them said that they would go back to being an omnivore if they understood the animal husbandry and animal welfare process. So they literally chose a dietary way of eating purely because they didn't have an understanding. That's all it is. They just did not know. They didn't know where to get information from.

Speaker 2 52:58

It's not easy, it's not just relevant, it's not there on the information from. It's not easy, it's not just relevant, it's not there on the package, it's not there when you go into the butcher. They just did not know. And when you think about it from that angle, well, that actually has a huge impact on their nutrition for sure. So whose onus is that on? Is it on their owners to go find it out? Probably they have some responsibility as consumers. But simultaneously, if us in the food industry and in the ag sector are not being transparent, well then someone else is going to take that spot at the table and they may not represent the food supply accurately, as it should be.

Speaker 1 53:41

Yeah, good points. That's been awesome, annalena. We're going to wrap up with our final question, which is the question that everyone gets these days, and it's mainly trying to get people to think. But, yeah, what's the last thing you changed your mind about?

Speaker 2 53:56

The last thing I've changed my mind about. It is a really hard question. I thought about this last night. I thought, hmm, that is actually tricky, probably because my mind is very fluid, like I'm okay with not knowing everything. Just present me with more information, oh, okay, cool. But I guess the last thing I changed my mind solidly about is gonna sound so weird with okra. I really have never liked okra. Oh my gosh, do not like it. It is edible slime. Like no way cannot stand that stuff at all. Like whoever created okra, like that was just an experiment as a joke for humanity. But I had it last night. Had it last night and it was absolutely phenomenal. I don't know how they got the slime out of it, and so I absolutely enjoyed it. I could have eaten a bucket off it and I just thought, man, this is amazing. And then I read your question and I'm like, well, I've changed my mind on opera, yeah good.

Speaker 1 55:08

Excellent Thanks, Elaine. We really appreciate your time and, yeah, look forward to seeing you at Lamex. I think it's going to be next time we catch up where you'll be speaking there.

Speaker 2 55:25

I'm sure you've got lots of talks in between now and lamex, but that's that's the next time I'll be in the crowd.

Speaker 2 55:27

Yeah, be good to see you there, mark. No, I'm not speaking anymore until lamex, a couple months off, to go spend some time on a sheep farm, and I'm also going to go watch how some cattle get bred using ai, because I don't understand that and I, I think I actually think. See, that's what you asked, the question about nutrition and you know, can it start on farm? I think it does, and I really want to follow the whole process, from breeding all the way through to the end and get some samples once these cattle are fully raised and see what they look like. So, yeah, I'll be doing that for the next couple of months. Awesome.

Speaker 1 56:02

Awesome, fantastic. Well, I look forward to hearing what you find.

Speaker 2 56:04

Cool, it was lovely speaking to you.

Speaker 1 56:07

Thanks, Elaine.