Genetic Services Manager Discusses Industry Evolution

Speaker 1 0:00

Welcome Rudolf Linder to Head Shepherd. Thanks, mark. Thanks for having me. Excellent, rudolf, you're the business manager of genetic services there at MLA and we'll get to that in a minute. But your background goes back into commercial farming started breeding corporate ag across a range of companies. Talk us through your journey from South Africa through to Australia today via New Zealand.

Speaker 2 0:20

Yeah, thanks, mate. Yeah, so I was fortunate enough at a very young age to be exposed to quite a diversified farming operation and operations. I should say. I've had the opportunity to be involved in various sectors from a very young age and I think that stimulated the passion for animal sciences and genetics very early on. Fast forward through the years, I went to New Zealand just after school, played a bit of rugby, realized very quickly that I'm not going to be the next best All Black, so went back to South Africa, went to study my undergraduate studies there from Elsenberg Agricultural College Division of Stellenbosch University and then spent two years on farm quite diversified farming operation again spending over cattle, sheep, ostriches, grain operations so big cropping segment as well dairy. And then always knew that most likely I was going to go back to New Zealand. Just fell in love with the place and so got married in between and fell in love with my high school sweetheart and her dad, which was a larger, big, typical South African, big in heart and soul and size. So he told me listen, if you want to take overseas, you need to put a ring on her finger. So, yeah, got married and immigrated to NZ in 2010. And so, yes, then very heavily involved with genetics, dairy genetics in particular Did a bit of sheep and goats, you know, goats continuously on the go, but very much dairy, and then later on, as the industry evolved, dairy beef.

Speaker 2 1:52

I also had the opportunity to spend some time with Elanco Animal Health where I was managing a big part of the ruminant portfolio and I was also part of the launch team, essentially in Mexico, new Zealand, where they essentially test the methodologies for a potential multimillion dollar new molecule called Imrestor which was at that stage the first non-antibiotic, non-vaccine. So I was part of that team, had a fabulous time with Elanco, went through a couple of acquisitions and mergers, as they do these days, and then an opportunity came up with ST Genetics actually being based in the UK, so immigrated to the UK. I was there part of the Cogent UK team. That was just at the time where ST acquired the majority and then finally the outright shareholding within Cogent breeding in the UK and at that time I was setting up a new business unit for Cogent focusing on genetic services. And interesting time in the industry where female dairy commercial genotyping were just being commercialized at scale. So that was a big project for us.

Speaker 2 2:57

And then also look at the marketing strategies and route to market for Cogent, given that obviously there's now an ACD and a Cogent component. Yeah, so I did that for three years until my visa essentially expired, sat down with Juan Moreno from ACD Genetics, the CEO, and back to New Zealand. Good opportunities there with our partnership with LIC, obviously. So then lived in Hamilton where I essentially managed the genetics component for ACD, you know, and had some involvement, obviously with the labs, but it was very much focused on genetics, setting up distribution channels. Look at mergers, acquisitions, bringing on a couple of industry stakeholders such as Matriarch genetics into the ally, into at least the SD genetics distributorship as well, as we acquired the business unit from Genetics Australia, which we wrapped into SD Genetics New Zealand as well. So, yeah, had a really exciting time there, did an MBA through Massey University and another couple of degrees in terms of animal sciences. So that's been keeping me busy for sure. Sounds like it? Yeah, and that's why that accent's quite confused, no doubt.

Speaker 1 4:03

It's been. It's been keeping me busy, for sure sounds like it, yeah, and that's why that accent's quite confused. No doubt it's been. It's been around a bit. It's been a bit of everything, yeah, and then, yeah, I guess, if we go back into sort of the farming focus, you've sort of been involved in everything from here herefords to ostriches and a whole heap of tropical adapted breeds as well. What have you learned about genetic improvement? That applies across all of those different species and, I guess, uses.

Speaker 2 4:31

I think, mark, and that still, to me, holds relevance today If we look at the breeders' equation and variation within populations and genetics, that is really what it comes down to. If it's pig and poultry, if it's ostriches, and you look at feather production and genetics, you know that is really what it comes down to. You know, if it's pig and poultry, if it's ostriches, and you look at feather production and quality, if you look at carcass or meat quality, dairy production, variation within a population is key to everything. You know and you know. I remember the first time when I sat down with a farmer and look at a genetic or genomic evaluation and we see the variation, you know the team's eyes almost landed on the desk. And so how can this be? This is absolutely awful. I said no, no, no, this is good, this is real quality stuff, you know. So I think we've come a long way, but ultimately, to me it boils down to the Breeders' Equation in terms of selection intensity, generation interval, variation, all those type of things, irrespective of specie or breed. You know that is of specie or breed. That is what it comes down to and we need to measure.

Speaker 2 5:28

Phenotype, in my opinion, remains critical. Again, one of the perceptions was initially in the UK as well. Well, if I'm going to genotype my females, I'm not going to milk record and it's like no, no, no, no, we need that. So it was that basic understanding, really, and there's no one else to blame for that. That's where we still do play a critical role in industry. It's about that educational element and how the phenotypic reference population and genomic reference populations actually interact with each other and how important that is. So that is probably what I would say, mark. The most critical component, which still holds prevalence and relevance today to what we do on a daily basis, is measuring phenotypes and variation.

Speaker 1 6:03

You know that is that is critical yeah, exactly, and yeah, I think that that equation that you're referring to is something that we always have to be. It's always there. We're always trying to work out which, which part of that we can tweak and obviously the the accuracy part is the bit that phenotyping really, or phenotyping and genotyping really helps us hone in on, which, I guess, as an industry, is probably the bit that we've been least good at is actually getting accurate phenotypes, and that's where the opportunity lies. We might move into your current role, which is there at Meat and Livestock Australia, which, for those outside of Australia, is a levy funded organization with support from the federal government, with a mandate to do R&D and promote red meat generally, but a big budget to develop the industries and keep them moving along. What do you see as the opportunities for genetic improvement in this sort of relatively interesting time in our industry?

Speaker 2 6:56

Yeah, that is something that we challenge ourselves with on a daily basis, mark, when we set our strategic goals and objectives. Genetics first and foremost. It is a long-term strategy, right? Nothing happens overnight.

Improving Sustainability Through Genetics

Speaker 2 7:08

One thing I would say is, if you look at the substantiality of both phenotype and genomic reference populations, that is a fantastic opportunity that we have, especially MLA speaking and, in particular, sheep genetics. That's something that, if you look at, we've got 4.1 million animals in the Merino Select Database and 2.8 million in the land plan analysis in terms of maternal and 3.9 million in the land plan terminal analysis. You know that is substantial. You know we're in a very, very fortunate position and we should not underestimate that. You know, and again, having had the opportunity to work in various markets globally, you know. I think that is really back to your question, enabling us to really look at things differently now. You know you look at things like hard to measure traits. You know there's a big emphasis obviously on environmental impact yes, methane, but equally other things. You know I still look at it me personally from a very, I suppose, simplistic manner is yes, it's fantastic. We need to have the blue sky research. We need to look at having sheep measured or cattle measured or animals in general measured, including goats, from a ruminant perspective, for methane emissions and so forth. But I think there's still a lot that we can do with regards to improved productivity and I think that will obviously have an impact on environmental impact overall and sustainability.

Speaker 2 8:26

So I look at these things as sustainability traits, as if I could categorize them in terms of where our focus will be going forward, not to shy away from what we have been doing and what our core foundation is. But you look at things like immunology. You look at disease resistance. You look at still eating quality still a lot of work to be done in quality. There's a lot of variation in the population. You look at, you know, carcass conformation, you know all of those traits.

Speaker 2 8:51

That is hard to measure. I think that is really where there will be continuous emphasis and focus. You know for us within MLA and the role that you know we play with regards to the impact I suppose genetics can have and the quantification of that impact on overall productivity, and that includes environment, sustainability, on-farm supply chain. So that's where I see continuous gains will be taking place. And you've mentioned something earlier which is really important is not just to produce breeding values or genomic breeding values or ASBVs, but actually produce them in a way which is accurate, reliable and which we can achieve what we hope large-scale industry adoption. I think that is also critically important.

Speaker 1 9:32

Yeah, and I couldn't agree more. And I think, yeah, obviously we well, I don't know how obviously, but we rattle on a lot about disease traits because I think it's massive going forward. But yeah, I guess I keep looking at it. There's two equations I spend a lot of time thinking about at the moment. That's the breads equation you talked about earlier, and then the cost of production equation and, and, to me, keeping people on farms producing ruminants.

Speaker 1 9:52

We need to be always thinking about how genetics contributes to that bit, which is either driving up production or driving down cost, and and in doing so, we'll definitely make it a more efficient and more environmentally sustainable. So it's, yeah, it it's exciting times, I guess, looking at the maths in New Zealand at the moment I did the sums yesterday I mean the estimations are that the sheep and beef sector will lose $450 million collectively in this financial year. So I know Gen X isn't the only answer, but it's a big part of that and we do need to. I think we're getting to the point where it's. It's it's kind of game on. We really do need the industry to to take this opportunity, because it's a massive latent potential that we see that we haven't, we've gone. We've come a long way and actually those numbers are really, really cool to hear how many animals are in those evaluations.

Speaker 1 10:38

I think we you're right that we we take that for granted a bit. We we often think, oh, it's just a genetic evaluation, but it's actually a world-class one and we're very, very lucky to have access to it, which is good. I'll stop rattling on, because this is about you, not me. The Before you did this, last time you left New Zealand you were with ST Genetics. As you mentioned, the dairy beef program is interesting. Obviously we've got some companies trying to move away from bobby calves, which makes an interesting role for beef genetics, and we've got all these females in the industry that could be producing beef calves, I suppose. So there's a whole heap of questions and we could probably spend a few hours talking about that alone. But I guess what did you learn at ST that we could benefit the whole of the broader beef industry?

Speaker 2 11:24

I think, yeah, well, first and foremost, very interesting topic which is very topical at the moment. Doesn't really matter where you go in Australia, new Zealand, us, doesn't matter. I think the opportunity again you know we talk about. You know beef and sheep earlier. You know dairy and beef production in general are under, like many other species, ruminant species, you know, under fierce scrutiny In terms of environmental footprint, overall productivity. You talked about increased productivity. You know pressure, putting pressure on cost of production. I think that is one thing that you know.

Speaker 2 11:58

Making reference to the UK, I think that's, you know, really leading the industry and the world on the global stage in terms of full-scale integration. I think they caught onto it really quickly and Brexit might've had a role to play or not. I'm not going to go into politics. I usually say politics, religion, and I stay out of those conversations, right, so I'll just on that. What I reference is my own experiences and, and I think what they've done is, they've realized very quickly they're going to have to look at their own supply chain and how do they guarantee essentially continuity of supply onshore, domestically within the uk, and produce quality beef. And so you know, you, you look at the, the groundwork that's been done by SD Genetics and other companies. I think in this instance, what they've done really well in SD Genetics and Cogent standpoint credit to them is they've aligned themselves very strategically, first and foremost with the farmers. The farmers realize that they've got a commodity here.

Speaker 2 12:50

One of their biggest assets outside of land are the animals. It's the cow. She's got a uterus. They don't have a need. The US market for so long have been known for good heifer pricing. It's been blown out of proportion. Oversupply prices plummeted. It's supply and demand the good old economic equation, as we all know too well.

Speaker 2 13:11

So the question was actually then how do we utilize these animals? That essentially is a dual-purpose animal. Historically, we talked about a simmental as a dual-purpose animal. Historically we talked about a simmental as a dual-purpose animal. Now we look at a dairy cow as a dual-purpose animal that can produce really high-quality beef for us. But it took many, many years to get there, to convince the supply chain and the farmers, because you need to make it work at a farm level.

Speaker 2 13:34

Concerning birth weights in particular and gestation length. You talk about New Zealand. It's a seasonal, pasture-based system. We're very, very time-bound in terms of pressure on those females to get back and calve, and timing of calving is equally critical as well. So we had to satisfy the dairy farmer and work with them to give them the confidence in the type of product that we are going to put into the dairy cow to produce a quality beef calf. And then at the other end, we had to satisfy the feedlot or the grower that these animals are actually going to grow and then, equally with the end user and the retailer, that actually they can put a quality product that is guaranteed in supply and continuity of supply on the shelf for the consumer. That's going to have a positive eating experience.

Speaker 2 14:14

Estee Co has done a lot of work bringing that whole supply chain together and I think that is where we've seen it working really well. That's where it's worked well, is taking everyone on that journey and there's still a lot of things, but it comes back to what we said earlier. It's about measuring and one of the key things that we've learned is beef is not beef anymore. All beef is not suitable for dairy beef and the beef cow has got a big, big role to play as well. And the scenes that we talk about dam effect or cow effect you know you've got a massive variation within the dairy cow population, if it's Jersey, if it's Holstein or if it's a crossbred. So measuring the phenotype has become critically important. No-transcript, and then methane and everything else that actually flows on top of that as an overlay. So that's been a really fascinating.

Speaker 2 15:11

You know, a couple of years ago the US, you know they were slower to the market in terms of adapting new technologies and adopting to where this dairy beef strategy is going. But due to scale and economy of scale, I mean they churned a million straws of dairy conventional semen to essentially a one for one, equal trade to dairy beef. So beef straws going in. You know it's unfortunate to say that. You know, especially in smaller countries like the UK, the purebred beef, or the suckler beef population, as they refer to them, has come under significant challenges. Right, because it's been proven with the likes of Marks and Spencers, tesco, morrisons, various supply chains and supermarkets that they are satisfied with the quality of beef. And the nice thing is because they carve 365 days a year a big proportion of the UK cow population they have continuous supply on a regular basis. We know, in suckler herds they've got a specific timing of calving et cetera. Right, similar to New Zealand. In the US same thing.

Speaker 2 16:06

Then the evolution of sex semen came along and the growers and the feedlots realized that actually a male calf grows significantly better than a female calf. There's various other qualities and attributes which certain supply chains have a preference over and at the same time now they're saying well, actually we only want male calves. So that led to two things really. Is the dairy beef evolution also stimulated further growth and demand for sex semen, male, believe it or not. In terms of Wagyu and other breeds, they potentially prefer females, I've seen as well for whatever reason again.

Speaker 2 16:33

So there's this whole male and female thing. Matter of the fact is, the technology enables us to provide male, female dairy beef breed replacement females of the population of dairy cows that we want to, on the back of a genomic, accurate and reliable evaluation to reduce the excess dairy bull calves which, yes, is creating some real problems and challenges globally for all the reasons that we are too familiar with. So that's been a real, real, interesting journey to be part of and I feel very privileged and fortunate to be part of that journey. I think there's been a lot of learnings. I'm also, interestingly enough, embarking on my PhD in one of these days, looking at integration and the economic impact of dairy beef supply chain in South Africa, being obviously a country that I'm too familiar with, and there's been very little work that's been done there, so no being obviously a country that I'm too familiar with.

Speaker 1 17:20

You know, and there's been very little work that's been done there. So, no, it's very interesting. Mark, very much. Yeah, right, you must have a very understanding wife, mate, going back and doing a PhD after all that travel and all that study.

Speaker 2 17:28

The secret is to get her to do a PhD at the same time mate Excellent, I mean winning. Yeah right.

Speaker 1 17:34

Good, excellent, fantastic, good, excellent, fantastic. Yeah, no, it's a really fascinating space and it makes so much sense to have, rather than to generate, what has been a waste product, obviously to make it into, if we can turn it into something that is of high value or high demand. It's. It makes, makes heaps of sense and it's going to be a really interesting space. It's. We're certainly not it's not finished yet. With the um, as the technology improves and as our ability to pick the right animals that go into those systems improves, it's going to be a really, really interesting space. We might swing to sheep now, which, by looking at your Facebook page, isn't your favorite species, but I'm sure you're getting around to them now. Sheep genetics is a big part of your portfolio there at MLA. I guess you've seen lots of different genetic evaluation systems. Now, I guess, just give us a bit of a run-through on strengths and weaknesses, or, I guess, what what you say across the globe in terms of genetic evaluation yeah, yeah, listen.

Advancements in Reproductive Technologies

Speaker 2 18:27

Um, probably the one sheep I am actually just uh, for for the reference, I am a big shame sheep enthusiast, uh for sure. Um, my time on farm probably, uh, these days is is not as days, is not as often as I probably would like, but for the ones that do listen, I've been very fortunate to spend a couple of weeks actually in Western Australia not long ago and that was really interesting Again, not going into the politics, but that was really interesting An industry that's deemed for some change. And equally, I've spent time with Lampro and Tom Bull not long ago really looking at his shedding sheep program and meat eating quality, in particular, focusing on fat and IMF. So what that program is doing, which leads to your question, is fascinating because we've got this, the reference flock, which again is a real big benefit to MLA and to the wide industry. Very important. Everything that we do is levy funded and is research dollars. So it's really important that we acknowledge the contributors, which is our producers and industry that co-fund projects with us to continuously deliver value back to the industry. That's how we measure ourselves.

Speaker 2 19:37

So some of the numbers that I've given you earlier, in terms of just the size and the scale of. That's how we measure ourselves. So some of the numbers that I've given you earlier in terms of just the size and the scale of the population that we work with is really testament to the sheep genetics team, our producers and the industry that enables that to take place. But you talk about the evaluation. I've again been privileged enough to work across the globe and it's not very often that you come across especially a sheep evaluation in particular, that is of this substantial scale and not just scale in terms of the measurable traits but the number of animals for each of the measurable traits. I think that is especially hard to measure traits, the ongoing work that we are doing, which to still achieve across the industry a 4% genetic gain cumulatively and ongoing. I think that shows real courage, that the investment is going into the right places to still achieve that and to measure that. Our kit plan, which is our goat evaluation, in comparison is relatively small but that has increased now to sitting on 30,000 animals within that evaluation as well. You know. So, again, in comparison, we you know we're pretty hard critics, as we are in the genetics world, on ourselves, but if we just put that in context as to what's happening elsewhere, globally man, it is substantial, you know, and and and to to really impact the industry with.

Speaker 2 20:59

You know the, the, the, the consistencies that we, that that we generate through our evaluation. You know we look at, you know the whole thing. You know we look at the outcome. We streamline our evaluation. You look at, say, pedigree inconsistencies, which is important for genomic evaluations, and so forth. You know we've had between 2023 and 2024, we had a reduction of 19 of pettigreen consistencies and we know, you know, and irrespective of species, that is critical, you know, because you know it's again, it's garbage and garbage our type of thing. You know, and back to the accuracy that's back to the accuracy.

Speaker 2 21:30

That is.

Speaker 2 21:31

That is where I think you know we will focus on and and the same with. You know we talked about eating quality traits earlier. You know, and if we just look at the, you know where the essentially the kill data is. If I could refer to it in a simple format, you know, with regards to October 24, which is the latest for IMF, you know we have in the maternal rate reference. You know we had almost 8,000 references carcass weight over 12,000, shear force over 7,500, lean mean yield, lead mean yield, you know is over 2,000, you know.

Speaker 2 22:01

So that is, I think that is where you know we talk about the evaluation. That's where we can bring. You know we talk about value-based marketing and how we can bring value to the producer but equally to the supply chain. I think that's where a lot of our focus. And then, like I said earlier you know, immunology, disease resistance, all of these things that we know is going to impact animal welfare as well. That's where the focus will be and because of that reference flock and the support from our producers and industry, we will continue to drive that mechanism and get those phenotypes, you know, with increased accuracy coming through that mechanism to enable us to produce, you know, accurate isb, viz and breeding values you for those strates at the other end.

Speaker 1 22:40

Yeah, excellent. No, it's certainly mind-boggling and obviously computational power is one of the things that holds us back a little bit and there's not much we can do about that other than wait for quantum or something. I don't know. You'll know more about that than I do, but obviously it's getting harder and harder. Just the sheer power or sheer weight of amount of data that now has to get crunched compared to as that evaluation gets bigger. Yeah, absolutely. This is probably a bit of an opportunity to maybe dream or just tell us what you know. But the sort of reproductive technologies you've mentioned sex semen, obviously AI, et, I guess what do you see happening in terms of sheep and beef or cross-hall livestock, really about where sorry, reproductive technologies might take us in the future?

Speaker 2 23:24

Yeah, very. I mean good question. And fascinating space, right, I mean talk about blue sky research. The things that's happening in that space is just mind blowing. We think we're smart. In the world of genetics, I would like to think reproductive technologies, we could claim that as part of genetics as well, because those boys and girls are just doing an amazing job and the research there is just fascinating In terms of applicability. I think, again, it's like with sex semen, I think in the earlier days. Right, it's not been a pretty product, but, man, you know, it's like anything. You know, I was trying to explain to my 4-year-old well, going on 13, and 11-year-old going on 20 the other day, you know, just talking about a disc man, you know, and you know a Walkman and you know, we all have these conversations with our kids.

Speaker 2 24:09

You know, and you know I see product and innovation at a very similar light. You know it's very similar. It's technology. You need to start somewhere. Is it always going to be pretty? By no means. I remember the first mobile phone I had was a good old Motorola man. It was bigger than a brick right. So anyway, that's the moral of the story and I think you know we need to start somewhere. And it's the same with reproductive technologies.

Speaker 2 24:35

What we are seeing now, you know, in terms of just basic mode production and IVF. Ivf is gaining a lot of momentum and IVF is not just gaining momentum in terms of improvement in technology. The media is starting to play a crucial role in IVF and the viability of embryos and what we can do with that, and not so just from a genetic, nuclear standpoint. So you know in other means what's happening, say, within the world of sheep genetics or what's happening in large bull starts globally, but commercial application, and I think that is really important. You know, if you think about, you know again, we talked about generation interval earlier and the breeder's equation I see reproductive technologies potentially having a crucial role to play in managing animal welfare as well. And I'm not talking about genetic modification, by no means embryo production with a donor, a donor female and a and a and a and a male. You know making extreme and creating extreme high in genetic uh, merit genetics, irrespective what that is it could be for milk volume, protein, fat or whatever the case may be. But I see also that play a crucial role going forward in in managing animal welfare as well.

Speaker 2 25:44

You know, give you one trait or two, make it two. You know we talked about polled and we talk about. You know heat tolerance. You know, give you one trait or two, make it two. You know we talked about polled and we talk about, you know, heat tolerance. You know, if you think about the applicability of genetics, you know in third world countries, just in terms of you know heat tolerance, not even third world countries. You know you talk about days, some days in New Zealand, man. You know you talk about Australia, but let's make it more third world countries because that is a more, I suppose a bigger limitation in terms of adaptability of genetics in those environments. That could be a game changer and we can do that with large-scale, commercially applicable embryo production.

Speaker 2 26:15

We talk about polled. Again, same thing. Bull studs globally have introduced a polled gene selectively through breeding programs. So as a population, without selecting specifically for polled genes, we have been breeding towards a more pole, homozygous and heterozygous population by simply just using bulls that we would choose as part, shortening generation interval, but equally have a role to play in terms of selecting, with extreme selection and density for traits that we know is going to have significant impact and a role to play with an industry collectively, either at a producer and or at an industry level.

Speaker 2 27:03

From an animal welfare, animal productivity standpoint, I think there's still a bit of work to be done. We're doing quite a bit of work with embryos in the northern parts of Australia. Again, it's extensive. Those cattle are not being bred in an intensive environment where you've got frequent access to them, so it takes a lot more timing. Access to veterinarians and skilled operators in the north, like in many other countries, always will remain a challenge, know. So reproductive technologies is developing beyond just the technology itself, as in the embryonic technology, but it's actually the equally the applicability of the technology, the implantation, the programs that we use, you know. So I think that's that will also have a big role to play, especially moving forward in the in the wider scale adoption and commercial applicability.

Speaker 1 27:45

yeah yeah, no, it's. It's going to be an interesting space, and long may it continue to evolve. I guess we can get off onto all this fancy tech and all the exciting stuff that you and I could talk about for hours. What are we, I guess what's imperative as we do all this? To make sure we're bringing our commercial product or commercial producers along, make sure it's still practical and accessible for those guys and gals.

Speaker 2 28:08

Yeah, listen, I remind myself on a regular basis. You know, back to the basics. You know because you know, I think you know, across the commercial environment, you know it's almost like a genetic distribution curve, right? You know, you've got a big proportion of the population sitting here in the middle and then you've got a population that needs a bit more convincing others, that is leading the charge, you know, education and bringing stakeholders, which includes stakeholders as in the producer segment, the industry, potential partners along that journey. And I think I'll probably summarize that through collaboration. And I think it's imperative.

Speaker 2 28:43

It is really important that, yes, research is important and we need that component. Let's not underestimate that. That you know. Yes, research is important and we need that component, let's not underestimate that. But I think we need to continue to focus the efforts and the emphasis on research that's really going to make an impact at a producer level, because those are obviously that's the particular market segment that we need to adapt and adopt new technologies.

Speaker 2 29:09

So, whatever the case may be, if it's, I mean there's still a proportion of our population which are not using breeding values. Then there's others that's doing sex embryo production. You know, that just shows you the variation within your population. But it's equally important that we recognize that and that we spend the time, through the various adoption programs that we have with each of those producer segments, to take them along that journey, because we run the risk of leaving a large component of the industry, whoever they may be, behind and we only focus on the blue sky research and really the early adopters, focusing on the lollies and the nice to haves and all the innovative stuff. We need to make sure the only way we will succeed is by making sure that we take the large producer commercial segment with us on that journey and demonstrating the value to them yeah, and I guess sometimes I think we don't need to understand the how the intel chip works.

Speaker 1 29:59

We just know that every time we buy a laptop, the intel chip's a bit better than it was last time, and so there's a there's always going to be an element of the population that just gets a better outcome, even though they don't want to know why, and they don't need to know why, I suppose, and that's the benefit, and that's that's the justification for why ml I can invest in genetics. Obviously because it's it's bringing the whole industry up, even though it's a segment industry that that uses or directly uses it. But it's the outcome across the industry that really matters yep, and I agree very much.

Speaker 2 30:27

I heard someone which I obviously claimed from you making the Intel analogy on that chip.

Speaker 1 30:34

Right, I think that's really important, I could have stole it from them.

Speaker 2 30:37

I just wanted to give you the credit, mate. I think it's really important. But I also think you know, we need to keep ourselves honest as well. Mark, you know we've got a real duty of care here towards the industry. Here towards the industry as researchers and as MLA and various other industry stakeholders and industry bodies. It's to be transparent with where we invest our funds, our research and equally, like I've just demonstrated, it's fascinating to be able to look back and sit down with producers that all contributed in some way, shape or format and show them there's the scale of the reference population and show them the research and make it tangible to them.

Speaker 2 31:13

We looked at a processing facility the other day and I walked into another example. I walked into a wool process facility outside of Perth the other day and isn't it fascinating where we can actually match the wool samples with the animals that actually essentially sheared those wool clips. That's when you bring producers and take them along that journey and show them actually this is your product, this is where it's going and this is what we've got. It's very rewarding and it's a privileged position to be in and we shouldn't lose sight of that. But, like you say, there's others that's just going to enjoy the ride essentially, and just want to see the improved technology and the tools and the whistles and the bells that comes with it, and there's others that need a bit more convincing in terms of demonstrating the value proposition.

Speaker 1 31:57

Yeah, 100%. We've sort of covered off on environmental sustainability and the roles that genetics play. Is there anything you'd like to add to what we covered before? Like to add to what we covered before?

Speaker 2 32:08

I think probably the only thing I would say on that, mark, is from a genetic standpoint. There's many ways that we can capture phenotypes, and methane and greenhouse gas emissions in general is a hot topic right, let's not deny the fact and there's a lot of research going on. I think one thing we need to be cautious and conscious of is there's various ways that we can measure methane output and greenhouse gas emissions in general. I think one of the things that MLA will be looking at going forward most likely is yeah, it's fantastic to have this research and being part of the methane global hub and potentially collaborating and contributing, but I think what is really important that we as an industry a global industry that is capturing and conducting research in this space is that we look at standardization of the phenotypes that will be going into these evaluations and the ways in which we have measured this. There are various devices and it's fantastic technology. I mean kudos to these guys and innovators and engineers that has produced these technologies. It's fascinating.

Speaker 2 33:09

All I'm saying is, as you would know too well and others potentially listening to this podcast, that the way that we measure phenotypes there's an element of standardization, and the same that we accredit our scanners on an annual or biannual basis.

Speaker 2 33:24

Within sheep genetics as well, there's an accreditation process basis. Within sheep genetics as well, there's an accreditation process. There's a way that we can measure the quality in QC and quality control of the data going into our evaluation. And it's going to be the exact same thing I can foresee with meat eating quality traits and the devices that be used there, which again is accredited and it goes through a process. Due diligence is being performed, and it's going to be the same with methane. So that's the only thing I would say, probably on the air of caution. Mark is fascinating and absolutely it's well needed, but I think there's more work to be done in terms of actually taking that and then delivering either a breeding value, genomic breeding value, a sustainability index in whichever way, shape or format we will deliver that or formats that. We will deliver that back to industry to make sure that we actually can compare apples with apples, and it's done in a standardized format where we feel comfortable again with what we produce at the other end.

Speaker 1 34:13

Yeah, it's a good point, and it's certainly not limited to genetics. I think the whole world has got a million different ways of measuring carbon and valuing carbon, and so everyone's scrambling at the same rate, I suppose to try and standardize. But it's a really good point. Given your global experience, what do you see as Australia's competitive advantages and challenges in genetic improvement programs?

Speaker 2 34:37

Well, I think we've touched on a couple of these throughout the course of the day, which is reference populations and size and scale and leverage that we have and we're in a very fortunate position that we have that. I think the other benefit I was at a Cattle Australia at a CSIRO actually conference scale and leverage that we have and we're in a very fortunate position that we have that. I think the other benefit I was at a CSIRO actually conference earlier this week where Australia has got a plus minus 20 million population. Human population Australia produces food for about 60 million people. That is incredible. Let's not underestimate that. We look at New Zealand as well as an export country, but equally as an import country, being a relatively small island nation. You look at Australia with its land mass and productivity with regards to its role that it plays in food sustainability and how it contributes to high-valued protein. So I think Australia is in an extremely fortunate position in terms of geographical location. It's relatively close to its markets of export. It's diverse in the products that we produce and that spans across animal species, fruit, vegetables and various crops, seeds, various other things. But specifically speaking, selfishly speaking, at least from a genetic standpoint and from an animal production standpoint, the innovation and the technology that exists in Australia is absolutely mind-blowing and, like I say, I've been privileged to work in various markets. It's almost like I feel a sense of responsibility that the world is almost looking at Australia for what we are doing in this space in terms of really leading genetic advancements and technologies and application.

Speaker 2 36:14

And a big role that we play there is, again, is the contribution of phenotypes, ultimately reliable and accurate genetic evaluations, how we collaborate with industry and then, more importantly, you know, is the focus on how to measure traits. You know that is something I think you know a lot of our industry global industry collaborators are really fascinated about. You know you look at meat eating quality. You look at, you know, meat traits, carcass traits that we select for collaboration with Agbu and CSIRO and various other stakeholders and industry bodies is really at the front end of genetic advancement and genetic evaluation. So me, as an outsider coming into Australia and having spent the last year in Oz, I think, from an expat coming into Australia, a big tap on the back and on the shoulder for what the industry has done in Australia. You know it's a lot of hard work and it's a significant amount of ongoing investment to get to that point. Let's not underestimate that.

Speaker 2 37:20

And probably the big thing which I'm most impressed with, mark, and I think that's why it's been such a success. Such a success I'm not saying it's always been easy, but it's the cross-value collaboration, cross-industry collaboration, producer stakeholders, researchers, industry bodies, supply chain, international markets. It's a big engine and there's a lot of moving parts, but it's a massive responsibility to engage with each of those stakeholders across that value chain to get to where we are, and I think Australia is in a very fortunate position to continue that momentum. We look at what's happening with beef cow inventory and population in the US. They've been having it real tough Again. It creates opportunities for Australian beef producers in that regard, and it's the same with lamb and it's the same with various other things. Australia are not just looking at producing beef product at scale, but it's also the quality of the product that it produces, which I think is highly applaudable excellent, so better at genetics than rugby, is that?

Speaker 1 38:23

is that a summary, or?

Speaker 2 38:25

might well, you'll be pleased. Um, my blood is as black as it can as it can be, right, so you can imagine. Um, it's, it's, it's, it's after the the one point loss. Over the weekend, you know it's been pretty well. My wife outright refused to watch a game. You know, luckily they're playing in the northern heart, in the northern hemisphere, right, so there's a time lag. We refuse to watch a game if the all blacks loses, right. So we've, we had a bye this weekend.

Speaker 2 38:48

But my, I, I've probably been seen as a traitor, but I am a new zealand citizen and so the day when we got our kiwi power sports, we said, listen, we're gonna come out and we're gonna wholeheartedly now support the all black. So I, I'm an all black. But hats off to the wallabies massive win this last weekend over wales and I truly hope for them and for joe schmidt's psych, that they can maintain the momentum, because it's been, it's been, you know it's. They've been having it pretty tough. They've been having it pretty tough. But to my fellow countrymen, there's the spring box man. They're on a roll and it's going to take a lot to stop those boys.

Speaker 1 39:20

So good on them too indeed one final question before well, second last question, which isn't on notice so you don't have to answer it, but I always hold south africans up in a really high place in my head in terms of I don't know. They seem to be 20 or 30 years ahead of the genetic game, like they seem to be really good, smart, smart breeders in South Africa before it happened here and I think the world's sort of all leveled out now. But do you have any thoughts on why that was? There seems to be a lot of interesting stuff coming out of South Africa 20, 30 years ago.

Speaker 2 39:51

Yeah, absolutely, I think again. South Africa, not that other countries are not, but it's a challenging place to farm. Let's not underestimate that. It's a South Africa. It's a, not that other countries are not, but it's a challenging place to farm. Let's not underestimate that.

Innovations and Challenges in South Africa

Speaker 2 40:02

It is a very tough climate and it is. It ranged from extremes, both end of the scale, and everything in between. So I think why I'm mentioning that is the quality of South African farming is South African farmers at a very early stage have kind of been forced to be really innovative and smart thinking with how they can de-risk their businesses. Clearly, genetics has been a core part of that. So I think de-risking with stimulating thoughts in terms of being innovative has been really going hand in hand. And then I suppose just the climatic condition in terms of political environment has been posing a real threat as well. So, yeah, I think there's been various contributing factors that's really allowed South African farmers, in particular primary producers, to be really innovative with their ways of thinking.

Speaker 2 40:51

And I think, you know, unfortunate for them, I think for a lot of South African innovative farms and industry bodies collectively, they've probably been a little bit ahead of their time mark, you know, in some regards, like we've seen, and I think that's probably been to their detriment as well, you know, because you know the market weren't ready for when they were ready with the type of genetics that they had to introduce. And then the big big thing mark for south african farms, which I am, I'm fearing, really sorry for those guys. It's just the likes of foot and mouth and endemic diseases. You know that is I mean if South Africa, from a genetic standpoint and a health status standpoint, had an open gateway into international trade and markets. Different story, right, different story, because they've got such good genetics.

Speaker 2 41:36

The unfortunate thing is their limitation to export and get that genetics into into the wider world. You know that's been. That's a. That's a real shame.

Speaker 1 41:44

That's a real shame, yeah yeah, as as somebody that bought a buck there in 2003, I think, and still with the intention of importing semen, and that semen never left south africa. That's it anyway.

Speaker 2 41:56

There's a few of them, there's been a few, there's been a dorper sheep I know of that's been going for, uh, a six figure, some with many zeros. That's still still sitting in a production facility that there's just no way to export that semen, you know. But again, the demand, you know. If you look at an interesting my last comment on that as well you know you look at markets which we never anticipated. You look at russia. You look at markets which we never anticipated.

Speaker 2 42:19

You look at Russia, you look at China, especially sheep genetics focus, which is really after superior meat quality. They want growth, they want something with a black head. Again, there's a lot of breeds that ticks that box in South Africa and it's the same with goats, bull goats, kalahari reds, and the list goes on. The same with Angoras, obviously more for their fiber, but from a meat production standpoint, if south africa again had an open gateway into the international markets for both live export genetics, it could mean significant for those individuals that truly value and invest in quality genetics, which they have been for a very long time yeah, it's, uh, it's my well, australian, born, live in new zealand, but I get homesick for not being in south africa.

Speaker 1 43:00

I've been there lots of times and really keen to get back. But there's some beautiful livestock there and maybe it is the fact that they couldn't modify the environment, so they had to modify the genetics much more than I guess.

Speaker 2 43:09

In australia, new zealand, we just worked on modifying the environment rather than, rather than, the genetics as the core driver, whereas there it was just genetics really I think and again, you know you think, if I, if we like we do in the genetics environment, you know we look at genetics and management and and environment. You know certain things you can change, other things not. But what they've done really well I think you've been absolutely spot on with your comment is, if you look at what they've done, and especially within the terminal crossbreed population, you know you look at the breeds that they you know, they they are crossing, you know you look at, well, you look at Boron and you look at Beefmaster and you look at various other breeds that South Africa has really, I mean, for a very long time they've been very known for producing especially red coat-colored cattle. That is extremely adaptable and the feedlot still in South Africa. If they don't have a red coat, you've got a challenge at hand getting them in there.

Speaker 2 43:59

You look at interesting. You look at Angus's red and black. I'm not going to go down that path, but in some markets you know they prefer the black. In other markets it's the red, but South Africa I think it's because of that adaptability and because of their terminal braids that they've really braided cattle. That is extremely adaptive, is extremely agile to adjust to climatic conditions and still produce a calf, perform reproductively and produce a carcass that is highly valued by the supply chain.

Speaker 1 44:32

Yeah, my favorite quote from a South African was breed a profitable sheep and learn to like what it looks like, and I mentioned that at least once a week and it's yeah, I think, very early. They threw out mainly threw out the base breeds anyway, and were happy to cross stuff and work out and not just say it has to be within this breed stand or whatever. It was all about adaptability and bring those breeds together or bring the attributes together in the best way they could. But anyway, we better stop talking about South Africa, because that's another hour we could talk, absolutely yeah. Last question, which is the one we ask everyone, which is what is the last thing you changed your mind about?

Speaker 2 45:07

Well, geez, that's a big one, mate, because I'm privileged to work across so many things and I probably changed my mind more regularly than what I should have. But I'm going to throw a cat amongst the pigeons. I thought, you know, and it's probably because I'm a big rugby fan as well, and I'm going to keep it lighthearted. I thought it was a done deal for the Wallabies, but I think the last thing I've changed my mind was over the weekend to think that actually, tongue in cheek, there's still a bit of hope left for them, you know. So last thing I changed my mind was was that the Wallabies actually could still be a contender come the next World Cup, and I really hope, for their sake and for World Rugby, that that is the case, mike.

Genetic Enthusiasts Connect and Exchange

Speaker 1 45:42

That'll cheer up quite a few people on this. We still get 60% listeners in Australia, so that'll be well received.

Speaker 2 45:49

I am living here now, so I need to make sure that I earn my right.

Speaker 1 45:52

Yeah, yeah, excellent, rudolph, that's been a fantastic chat and, yeah, we could chat for hours, because you obviously think about genetics as much as I do, which is which is awesome and yeah, but yeah, no, thanks very much for your time today and and all the best with the phd. I didn't didn't know about that coming into the today, so that's.

Speaker 2 46:09

I'm sure that'll be a bit of fun for you mate, I'm I'm sure you know, in our household we always look for something exciting and, like I said earlier, one way to get it done was to get my wife to come along. Well, actually I think she was the one that prodded me for the PhD, but no, we're always keen for a challenge, mate, and it's been an honor talking to you, and it's always fascinating engaging with like-minded individuals and exchanging ideas as to what's happening in different markets and segments in the world of genetics, for sure.

Speaker 1 46:36

Thanks, mate, all the best.

Speaker 2 46:37

Thanks, mark, appreciate your time.